Are Luka and Kyrie Really the Best Offensive Backcourt Ever?

Getty Images/Ringer illustration Stan Van Gundy started the debate, heard your counters, and wasn't swayed by a single alternative. "I never heard one that even gave me pause, to be honest," he said. Let's start with a disclaimer: Stan Van Gundy did not set out to slight Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson, or diminish Jerry West and Gail Goodrich, or diss Clyde Frazier and Earl Monroe. He was not trying to spark a cross-generational, cross-platform debate—just to offer a little historical perspective on the pyrotechnics performed by Luka Doncic and Kyrie Irving during the Western Conference finals. "Arguably the best offensive backcourt in the history of the NBA," Van Gundy proclaimed early in the series between the Dallas Mavericks and the Minnesota Timberwolves. In the days that followed, Van Gundy would double, triple, and quadruple down on the sentiment—-hammering the point home again last Thursday, as Doncic and Irving led the Mavericks to a Game 5 rout, clinching the series and sending Dallas to the Finals. The backlash—from fellow TNT analysts Charles Barkley and Shaquille O'Neal, from pundits and fans and (lowercase) stans—was swift and severe. Luka and Kyrie, over ?! How dare he! A list of all the things Doncic and Irving cannot do, or have not yet accomplished, would follow. The thing is, Van Gundy's assertion wasn't particularly outrageous or hyperbolic, at least within the narrow framework he laid out. He did not call Doncic and Irving the "greatest" backcourt of all time or the "winningest," and he didn't say they were the best two-way duo. The key word here is "offensive" (as in scoring, not insulting). And when it comes to offensive skills—dribbling, passing, playmaking, creating shots, making shots—it's really not a stretch to label Doncic and Irving as the best guard tandem in history. "I think they're the best offensive backcourt ever," Van Gundy told The Ringer, now quintupling down on the claim. "That's how I put it in the series. And it got a lot of pushback from Charles and Shaq and those guys. But listen, I don't think I've ever seen a backcourt with two guys like that, who you can just give the ball to either one of them and then they can go create offense for you—for themselves or for their teammates." Consider the two stars separately for a moment. Doncic, who is just 25 years old, has already established himself as one of the most skilled players ever, with career averages of 28.7 points, 8.7 rebounds, and 8.3 assists. As a scorer, he's nearly unstoppable. As a passer, he's a visionary. And at 6-foot-7 and 230 pounds, he can pretty much get anywhere he wants on the court. Irving is regarded as one of the greatest ball handlers and finishers of all time and has uncanny body control. Both can shoot from distance. Both are great in big moments and tight games. And, critically for this discussion, both are point guards by trade, even if, as Doncic's teammate, Irving mostly plays off the ball now. What sets the Mavericks duo apart, then, is that either one can do whatever is needed, at any time, as both scorers and playmakers. So when Golden State Warriors fans howl in support of Curry and Thompson, Van Gundy makes a simple, fairly obvious rebuttal. "When I look at Curry and Thompson—fantastic backcourt, but you can't just give Klay Thompson the ball and say, 'OK, create a shot for us,'" he said. "He's more dependent on other people. And there's usually at least one in that that's true of, at least to some degree." There's no disputing that Curry and Thompson are the best shooting backcourt of all time, especially from the arc. There's no disputing that they're among the most successful, with four championships. And there's no disputing that Thompson, in his prime, was a far superior (and more dedicated) defender than Doncic or Irving have been in their careers. If you were picking the best backcourt of all time, the Splash Brothers are a good bet. But that's not the point Van Gundy is making. "Obviously, I know there's people who have accomplished more," Van Gundy said. "And I know there's better two-way backcourts. I'm just talking offensive backcourts, talent." But the discussion gets complicated depending on how you want to define "best offensive backcourt." The Ringer's resident stathead Zach Kram tried a few frameworks to find an objective answer. Combined scoring average? The winner there is James Harden and Russell Westbrook, who combined for 61.5 points per game for the 2019-20 Houston Rockets—two points per game higher than Doncic and Irving did this season. (Curry and Thompson ranked sixth here, with a combined average of 52.2 points in 2015-16.) Combined points generated? (Meaning, all points produced via scoring or assist.) The data here is limited to the "play-by-play era" (since 1996-97), and it again points to Harden-Westbrook, who combined to generate 97.4 points per game in 2019-20. Doncic and Irving are again second, at 95.3 points generated. (Curry and Thompson did not make the top six because of their relatively modest assist rates.) Offensive box plus-minus? (This stat, derived from box scores, estimates "the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player," according to Basketball Reference.) Here, Curry and Thompson at last prevail, with an average OBPM of 6.9 in 2015-16, tying them with the Rockets' Harden and Chris Paul (in 2017-18). Doncic and Irving are third, at 6.6, just ahead of another Curry-Thompson season (6.4 in 2014-15). In the wake of his original proclamation, Van Gundy said he was deluged with other suggestions: Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond, of the early '90s Warriors. West and Goodrich, of the late '60s, early '70s Lakers. Monroe and Frazier, of the '70s Knicks. Of course, a lot of this is eye-of-the-beholder stuff. A Pistons fan from the late '80s might lobby for Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars. A '60s Celtics fan might insist on Bob Cousy and Sam Jones. An '80s Lakers fan might point to Magic Johnson and Byron Scott. Van Gundy dutifully considered every pairing that came his way. "I never heard one that even gave me pause, to be honest," he said. "I just don't think, as great as those backcourts are, offensively, I just don't see one that has that kind of talent ." Things get even more convoluted depending on how you define "backcourt." The '90s Bulls specialized in the triangle offense, eschewing traditional point guards and running nearly everything through Michael Jordan (a guard) and Scottie Pippen (a forward who played like a guard). Were they technically the Bulls backcourt? (Or would the presence of B.J. Armstrong and Ron Harper undermine the point?) "Even if you want to do that, I'm taking Luka and Kyrie offensively over Jordan and Pippen," Van Gundy said, "because I don't think Pippen offensively is as good as those two guys. I mean, I just don't." And as great a passer as Jordan was, he was not a primary playmaker like Doncic, Van Gundy noted. "I don't think Jordan's passing and being able to create shots for his teammates was even close," he said. The same positional conundrum surfaces when you consider Irving's previous tag-team partner in the Finals: LeBron Raymone James. In practical terms, James has been the point guard on every team he's ever played for—handling the ball, running the offense, orchestrating every possession—but he's nearly always been officially listed as a forward, flanked by two more conventional guards (read: shorter players). So what about the James-Irving pairing? "If you wanted to classify as a guard, then that would be the one that would be closest," Van Gundy said. "But I'm still taking Luka over LeBron, as just strictly an offensive talent. But that would be the one where I'd at least think about it." He added, "LeBron certainly has the ability to pass the ball like . But I just don't think as a pure scorer, he's above Luka. And the thing is, we're looking at Luka at 25 years old. Who knows where he goes in the future?" That's the problem nearly all of the theoretical challengers face: Doncic is already one of the most skilled, most productive players ever to take the court. He's placed in the top five in MVP balloting in three of the past five seasons, including a third-place finish this year. On talent alone, he's better than 99 percent of the guards who have preceded him. Van Gundy has repeatedly called Doncic "the best offensive player I have ever seen," including in a Ringer piece last month and again when we spoke last week. "I've watched the game for a long time," said Van Gundy, who has been an NBA coach or broadcaster since 1995, "and I understand it's just my opinion, but I think he's the best ever." "Like with everything he can do—ballhandling, passing, shooting, ability to post up, drive the ball—he's the best offensive player and the most complete offensive player I've ever seen in this league," he said. "There's literally not one thing he can't do offensively. So I can't put anybody ahead of him. And so your second is going to have to be pretty significantly ahead of Kyrie." Indeed, the real challenge in this exercise is not necessarily about Doncic but about Irving. Because even if you believe that a different lead guard is better than Doncic, their second guard has almost no chance of being more skilled than Irving. "Kyrie Irving's skill level is obviously through the roof," Van Gundy said. "They've got two guys that can get 30-35 points, against good defense, on any given night." No, Doncic and Irving have not won a title together (yet). No, they will likely never be considered great "two-way" players. No, they might never reach the heights of some guard-center tandems (Magic and Kareem, Kobe and Shaq). And they've been teammates for just 16 months. Longevity matters when we're discussing legacies and rankings and superlatives. Defense matters. Success matters. It's fair to wonder whether the whole discussion is premature. But Van Gundy never claimed that Doncic and Irving were the greatest backcourt he'd ever seen, just the most talented offensively—a case they keep making, night after night, in this postseason. And, starting Thursday, a case they'll try to make on the NBA's grandest stage. This, however, is where the superlatives finally end. Or where they meet their match, anyway. As Van Gundy sees it, the Boston Celtics just have more top-to-bottom talent, a superstar duo in Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, and lots of defenders to throw at the Best Offensive Backcourt Ever. "I'd personally be surprised if Boston didn't win this and win it pretty convincingly," Van Gundy said. "Those two wing guys , they're both great two-way players. I just think they've got too much for them. But Dallas with that backcourt … it's like they call it in boxing, a puncher's chance. Those two guys give them a chance every night, and they have gotten a lot better defensively. So yeah, it's gonna be interesting."

Are Luka and Kyrie Really the Best Offensive Backcourt Ever?

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